Učinki BPL (PLC) na KV amaterščino

O radioamaterstvu v S5 in po svetu

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Učinki BPL (PLC) na KV amaterščino

OdgovorNapisal/-a s56al » 04 Avg 2004, 14:46

Trominutni video prikaz učinkov BPL tehnologije (BPL = širokopasovne digi komunikacije po energetski vodih, v EU bolj znan pod imenom PLC = Power line communications):

http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2004/06/18/8/

P.S.: PLC se v energetiki uporablja že desetletja (tudi pri nas), vendar je bil do nedavna omejen na ozkopasovne (prvotno analogne, kasneje tudi digitalne) TK zveze po daljnovodih. V zadnjem času pa se tehnologija uporablja tudi za širokopasovne digitalne povezave do gospodinjstev (dostop do interneta), kar ima na KV amaterščino porazen učinek. Kolikor mi je znano, nekaj tega v DL že obratuje v praksi.

LP, Sandi
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OdgovorNapisal/-a S52OW » 04 Avg 2004, 15:53

Žal imamo še veliko povpraševanja po 24h-internetni povezavi. Recimo v Trnovem....V glavnem mestu ni možno dobit' ne adsl-ja, kot tudi ne Telemachovega kabla in tam se BPL-a veselijo. Sranje!!
To bi bilo treba v kali zatreti...but - money talks.
Dolg boom - srečna postaja!! 73, S52OW de Tilen
Home page: http://tilenpusar.com
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OdgovorNapisal/-a s56oa » 05 Avg 2004, 20:29

Bo treba nabavit kilovat linči in klofat vsak dan ter povzročat visokofrekvenčno veselje tudi v obratni smeri. Kar pride ven, gre tudi noter.

Še en dober izgovor, za dnevno dozo radioamaterskega klofanja. :P

No ja, jaz na 2m simpleks kanalih že itak poslušam Pop TV. :evil:

73 de S56IUA - Ognjen
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OdgovorNapisal/-a s56a » 16 Avg 2004, 14:02

Jaz vklopim kW na KV in takoj sesujem internet cez TV kabl ampak ostanem tudi brez DX Cluster-ja :-( EMC rulz!
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Je po toči zvoniti prepozno?!

OdgovorNapisal/-a S50DX » 04 Okt 2004, 13:49

Ravno listam po reviji Planet PC (julij/avgust 2004) in sem se ustavil pri članku INTERNET PO NAPAJALNEM OMREŽJU. ARRL se bori in mislim, da je pri FCC celo izboril veto na PLC, kaj pa pri nas?

Članek lepo opisuje enostavnost in vsestranskost uporabe teh naprav, ki delujejo "mnogo nižje od brezžičnih komunikacijskih frekvenc pri brezžičnih radijskih izvedbah." Frekvenco delovanja navajajo od 4,3MHz do 20,9MHz!!!

Če se bo ta zadeva pri nas "prijela", sploh, če bo cenovno ugodna, lahko v urbanih naseljih pozabimo na HAMovščino. Ali je v S5 kakšna služba pristojna za tovrstne probleme "špricanja" po HAM bandih? Če bom jst komu butal v tlf ali TV bo celi halo, ko pa gre za vdor v HAM bande (podobno kot kabelski operateji), pa ni nobenega problema?!

Pa lep povolilni pozdrav s Koroške,
Alex :cry:
73's de Alex / JN76LN \ Prevalje
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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OdgovorNapisal/-a s56oa » 04 Okt 2004, 17:51

Pri nas se ta VF čira čara še ne testira. Bolj rezultat nesposobnosti elektro podjetij, kot pa zaščite države od motenj.

Drugače pa še filmček, kako reč izgleda v praksi, v dveh dolžinskih varijantah:

MPEG 4, 4 MB dolžine:
http://users.volja.net/antoni44/bpl.avi

MPEG 4, 2 MB dolžine:
http://users.volja.net/antoni44/bpl2.avi

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OdgovorNapisal/-a s56oa » 04 Okt 2004, 17:57

No, da še dodam, linka na film, ki sem jih jaz dal, imata isti filmček od ARRLja, kot je na ARRLjevi strani, samo da je skrajšan (transcoding iz MPEG v MPEG4 format), da si reč lahko ogledajo tudi tisti z počasnejšimi internet linijami.

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BPL novice

OdgovorNapisal/-a Gost » 15 Okt 2004, 14:43

Tole sem danes dobil na rtty reflektorju.
Miro S58T
Kopiram:


For anyone who hasn't already heard the news. This is a bummer!!

F.C.C. Clears Internet Access by Power Lines
By STEPHEN LABATON

ASHINGTON, Oct. 14 - Clearing the way for homes and businesses to receive high-speed Internet services through their electrical outlets, the Federal Communications Commission adopted rules on Thursday that would enable the utility companies to offer an alternative to the broadband communications services now provided by cable and phone companies.

As a further spur to the rollout of broadband Internet services, the F.C.C. also ruled that the regional Bell companies do not have to give competitors access to fiber optic lines that reach into consumers' home - a decision that prompted two of the Bells, SBC Communications and BellSouth, to announce that they would move quickly to build new fiber optic networks in residential neighborhoods. The ruling was criticized by rivals of the Bells and consumer groups, which called it anticompetitive and said it would lead to higher prices.

For the electric companies' part, broadband Internet service is more than a year away from becoming widely available. But the agency's ruling is expected to increase significantly the level of investment and interest by the utilities, which had been stymied in previous attempts to offer new services over power lines. They reach more American homes than either telephone lines or television cables.

So far, the technology has been limited mainly to experiments around the country, although a commercial version recently became available in some communities near Cincinnati.

"Today is a banner day, and I think years from now we will look back and see it as an historical day for us,'' said Michael K. Powell, the F.C.C. chairman. "This is groundbreaking stuff.''

Known as broadband over power lines, or B.P.L., the technology uses a special modem that plugs into electrical outlets. So far, it has been offered at speeds of 1 to 3 megabits a second, which is comparable to broadband service over cable modems or conventional phone lines - though not as fast as the 5 megabits a second achievable through the residential fiber optic lines just now being introduced by the Bell companies.

An obstacle to the use of power lines to carry communications traffic has been the electromagnetic interference the technology can cause to various types of radio signals. The commission ruled that it would tolerate a small amount of radio interference in certain areas by the new service in exchange for making the broadband market more competitive.

Amateur radio operators and public safety officials had asked the commission to move slowly in the area because of the interference created by the service. The agency responded by setting up a system to monitor interference and restricting the service in areas where it could jeopardize public safety, like areas around airports and near Coast Guard stations.

Officials noted that there have already been field tests in 18 states of the B.P.L. technology. One company, Current Communications, has recently begun to offer broadband service near Cincinnati in a joint venture with Cinergy, the Midwest power and energy company. The service is priced at $29.95 to $49.95 a month, depending on the speed.

While some regulatory and technical issues remain, the technology offers enormous promise because the power grid is ubiquitous. The costs to the industry to offer the new service would be comparatively small, and the possible returns on those investments could be high. If the utility companies do begin to offer the broadband service more widely, they would also be likely to enter the telephone business by offering phone services over the Internet, just as phone and cable companies have begun to do.

Mr. Powell, the F.C.C. chairman, said that the new technology would not only offer greater competition in the broadband market, but would also allow consumers to easily create networks in their home through electrical outlets. And adding communications abilities to power lines would permit electric companies to better manage the power grid, he said.

Mr. Powell and three other commissioners voted to approve the rules. The fifth commissioner, Michael J. Copps, dissented in part. He noted that the agency had pushed aside a number of vital issues for another day, including questions of whether utility companies would have to contribute to the telephone industry's universal service fund and provide access to people with disabilities, and whether measures would be put in place to ensure market competition.

He also said that regulators would need to determine whether it would be fair for electricity customers to pay higher bills "to subsidize an electric company's foray into broadband.''

"We just have to get to the big picture and confront the challenges I have mentioned if B.P.L. is going to have a shot at realizing its full potential,'' Mr. Copps said.

But industry executives praised the decision.

"This is one of the defining moments for the widespread adoption of broadband by Americans,'' said William Berkman, chairman of Current Communications, a private company in Germantown, Md., which hopes to have in place a B.P.L. Internet network passing by 50,000 homes by the end of the year. The future also grew brighter for the regional Bell companies with the F.C.C.'s decision to grant BellSouth's request to exempt the Bells from any requirement that they lease their new fiber lines to the home to rivals at low costs.

Mr. Powell said that the exemption would "restore the marketplace incentives of carriers to invest in new networks.''

Prompted by the decision, the Bells said they would move more rapidly to build fiber networks to homes. So far, the nation's biggest Bell, Verizon Communications, has been the most active in building residential fiber networks. But on Thursday, SBC said it now planned to provide 18 million households higher speed Internet services in two to three years, rather than five years as previously announced.

"The shovel is in the ground, and we are ready to go," said SBC's chairman and chief executive, Edward E. Whitacre Jr.

But rivals, consumer groups and Mr. Copps criticized the decision as anticompetitive.

The F.C.C. majority seems unable to restrain its preference for monopoly over America's consumers, business users, and investment, said Len Cali, a vice president for AT&T.

Mark Cooper, director of research at the Consumer Federation of America, said the decision would tighten the already powerful grip that the telephone and cable companies have on broadband services.

"This stranglehold will stifle innovation as these duopolies discriminate against unaffiliated applications and services that in the past have driven the growth of the Internet and the boom in information technology,'' Mr. Cooper said.
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BPL novice

OdgovorNapisal/-a Gost » 15 Okt 2004, 14:44

Tole sem danes dobil na rtty reflektorju.
Miro S58T
Kopiram:


For anyone who hasn't already heard the news. This is a bummer!!

F.C.C. Clears Internet Access by Power Lines
By STEPHEN LABATON

ASHINGTON, Oct. 14 - Clearing the way for homes and businesses to receive high-speed Internet services through their electrical outlets, the Federal Communications Commission adopted rules on Thursday that would enable the utility companies to offer an alternative to the broadband communications services now provided by cable and phone companies.

As a further spur to the rollout of broadband Internet services, the F.C.C. also ruled that the regional Bell companies do not have to give competitors access to fiber optic lines that reach into consumers' home - a decision that prompted two of the Bells, SBC Communications and BellSouth, to announce that they would move quickly to build new fiber optic networks in residential neighborhoods. The ruling was criticized by rivals of the Bells and consumer groups, which called it anticompetitive and said it would lead to higher prices.

For the electric companies' part, broadband Internet service is more than a year away from becoming widely available. But the agency's ruling is expected to increase significantly the level of investment and interest by the utilities, which had been stymied in previous attempts to offer new services over power lines. They reach more American homes than either telephone lines or television cables.

So far, the technology has been limited mainly to experiments around the country, although a commercial version recently became available in some communities near Cincinnati.

"Today is a banner day, and I think years from now we will look back and see it as an historical day for us,'' said Michael K. Powell, the F.C.C. chairman. "This is groundbreaking stuff.''

Known as broadband over power lines, or B.P.L., the technology uses a special modem that plugs into electrical outlets. So far, it has been offered at speeds of 1 to 3 megabits a second, which is comparable to broadband service over cable modems or conventional phone lines - though not as fast as the 5 megabits a second achievable through the residential fiber optic lines just now being introduced by the Bell companies.

An obstacle to the use of power lines to carry communications traffic has been the electromagnetic interference the technology can cause to various types of radio signals. The commission ruled that it would tolerate a small amount of radio interference in certain areas by the new service in exchange for making the broadband market more competitive.

Amateur radio operators and public safety officials had asked the commission to move slowly in the area because of the interference created by the service. The agency responded by setting up a system to monitor interference and restricting the service in areas where it could jeopardize public safety, like areas around airports and near Coast Guard stations.

Officials noted that there have already been field tests in 18 states of the B.P.L. technology. One company, Current Communications, has recently begun to offer broadband service near Cincinnati in a joint venture with Cinergy, the Midwest power and energy company. The service is priced at $29.95 to $49.95 a month, depending on the speed.

While some regulatory and technical issues remain, the technology offers enormous promise because the power grid is ubiquitous. The costs to the industry to offer the new service would be comparatively small, and the possible returns on those investments could be high. If the utility companies do begin to offer the broadband service more widely, they would also be likely to enter the telephone business by offering phone services over the Internet, just as phone and cable companies have begun to do.

Mr. Powell, the F.C.C. chairman, said that the new technology would not only offer greater competition in the broadband market, but would also allow consumers to easily create networks in their home through electrical outlets. And adding communications abilities to power lines would permit electric companies to better manage the power grid, he said.

Mr. Powell and three other commissioners voted to approve the rules. The fifth commissioner, Michael J. Copps, dissented in part. He noted that the agency had pushed aside a number of vital issues for another day, including questions of whether utility companies would have to contribute to the telephone industry's universal service fund and provide access to people with disabilities, and whether measures would be put in place to ensure market competition.

He also said that regulators would need to determine whether it would be fair for electricity customers to pay higher bills "to subsidize an electric company's foray into broadband.''

"We just have to get to the big picture and confront the challenges I have mentioned if B.P.L. is going to have a shot at realizing its full potential,'' Mr. Copps said.

But industry executives praised the decision.

"This is one of the defining moments for the widespread adoption of broadband by Americans,'' said William Berkman, chairman of Current Communications, a private company in Germantown, Md., which hopes to have in place a B.P.L. Internet network passing by 50,000 homes by the end of the year. The future also grew brighter for the regional Bell companies with the F.C.C.'s decision to grant BellSouth's request to exempt the Bells from any requirement that they lease their new fiber lines to the home to rivals at low costs.

Mr. Powell said that the exemption would "restore the marketplace incentives of carriers to invest in new networks.''

Prompted by the decision, the Bells said they would move more rapidly to build fiber networks to homes. So far, the nation's biggest Bell, Verizon Communications, has been the most active in building residential fiber networks. But on Thursday, SBC said it now planned to provide 18 million households higher speed Internet services in two to three years, rather than five years as previously announced.

"The shovel is in the ground, and we are ready to go," said SBC's chairman and chief executive, Edward E. Whitacre Jr.

But rivals, consumer groups and Mr. Copps criticized the decision as anticompetitive.

The F.C.C. majority seems unable to restrain its preference for monopoly over America's consumers, business users, and investment, said Len Cali, a vice president for AT&T.

Mark Cooper, director of research at the Consumer Federation of America, said the decision would tighten the already powerful grip that the telephone and cable companies have on broadband services.

"This stranglehold will stifle innovation as these duopolies discriminate against unaffiliated applications and services that in the past have driven the growth of the Internet and the boom in information technology,'' Mr. Cooper said.
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OdgovorNapisal/-a S57S » 05 Nov 2004, 14:19

73!

Pred dnevi sem imel obisk znanca z družino, ki je zaposlen v ''visokih'' sferah ELES-a.
Seveda sem ob primerno ohlajenem TRAMINCU, kateri je bil bolj všeč najinima
soprogama, ''moški'' del pogovora napeljal na problematiko uresničitve BPL-a v Sloveniji.
Na moje veliko presenečenje je stvar poznal in se samo nasmehnil mojim strahovom, ki jih predstavlja BPL za naš hobby. Povedal mi je, da ELES ne namerava investirati
v slepo ulico (kar se hitrosti tiče) prenosa podatkov, marveč že kakšno leto pospešeno
zamenjujejo ''strelovodne'' kable s takšnimi, ki imajo v sredini do 48 optičnih vlaken.
(To je tisti kabl na vrhu visokonapetostnega daljnovoda.) Povezano imajo že precej
tega in stvar deluje super. Da je temu res tako si lahko preberete sami na tem spletnem
naslovu:
http://nt-ops.eles.si/portal/page?_page ... ema=PORTAL

Pa smo, vsaj upam, rešeni BPL-a. Amerikance pa bomo klofali v QRO kategorijah,
pa bo!

Lep pozdrav,
Aleksander, S57S
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OdgovorNapisal/-a s56al » 05 Nov 2004, 14:42

Pozdrav Sandi,

Najprej moramo natančno opredeliti, o čem pravzaprav teče beseda. Klasični PLC (Power Line Communication) telekomunikacijski sistemi so električni telekomunikacijski prenosni sistemi, ki so se pojavili v analogni obliki že pred več kot 30 leti, dobijo se tudi modernejši digitalni. Njihove pasovne širine oz. prenosne hitrosti so relativno nizke, zato pa "nesejo" po daljnovodih tudi več 10 km daleč. Nekateri so tudi danes še vedno v funkciji. Uporabljajo nosilce na frekvencah do nekaj 100kHz, prenašajo pa kvečjemu nekaj govornih telefonskih kanalov ali bitne hitrosti v razredu kbps oz novejši digitalni do ca. 100kbps. Ti sistemi nas amaterjev ne ogrožajo, kot ti je znanec pravilno povedal, pa se veliko teh sistemov tudi nadomešča z neprimerno hitrejšimi optičnimi sistemi prenosa signalov / podatkov.

Vendar PLC tehnologija (na oni strani luže imenovana BPL), o kateri je zadnje čase govora v zvezi s potencialnimi motnjami radioamaterjem in KV radiodifuziji, niso zgoraj omenjeni klasični PLC prenosni sistemi, temveč je to hitra modemska oprema za zagotavljanje dostopa gospodinjstev do interneta, ki še najbolj spominja na hibrid med ADSL in ethernetom. Seveda ne na lepo posukanih telekomunikacijskih (telefonskih) vodih z dobrim samooklapljanjem, temveč na grobih elektrodistribucijskih kablih, ki veselo sevajo na vse konce in kraje. V DL se ti sistemi ponujajo danes že komercialno, na oni strani luže, če je verjeti ARRLu, tudi. Ti sistemi prenašajo po distribucijskem energetskem kabelskem omrežju znatno višje bitne hitrosti in zasedejo temu primerne pasovne širine na frekvencah visoko v radioamaterska KV območja. Seveda delujejo na krajših razdaljah, kot stari klasični daljnovodni PLCji, kar pa za povezavo neke soseske z npr. dostopovnim vozliščem v najbližji trafo postaji ni pomembna ovira. Kako učinkujejo na nam, radioamaterjem, ljube analogne radijske komunikacijie na KV frekvencah, se lepo vidi na ARRLovem filmčku.

Elektrogospodarstvo je v Sloveniji razdeljeno v tri velike skupine in sicer:
- proizvajalce (recimo JEK),
- prenosno energetsko omrežje (ELES),
- distribucijo (npr. ELektro Ljubljana, Elektro MB,...).

Obstaja tudi "novopečena" firma Elektro TK http://www.elektro-tk.com/ , ki je izšla iz ELESa http://nt-ops.eles.si/portal/page?_page ... ema=PORTAL
in se ukvarja v glavnem, če poenostavim, s telekomunikacijskimi prenosnimi omrežji velikih kapacitet (reda Gbps) na velike razdalje (med mesti, v sosednje države).

Če je hitri PLC modemski dostop do interneta za katerega od navedenih elektrogospodarskih subjektov v S5 zanimiv, je zanimiv kvečjemu za elektrodistribucijska podjetja, ki bi prek obstoječega elektrodistibucijskega omrežja do gospodinjstev na ta način lahko pripeljala internet. ELES s hitrimi dostopovnimi PLC sistemi oz. omrežji nima kaj početi. Na našo srečo vlaganja v dostopovno PLC opremo niso majhna in je veliko vprašanje, ali se v ruralni Sloveniji to sploh finančno izide. Zlasti glede na relativno dobro pokritost s KATV in ADSL internetom.

Optični kabli, ki ti jih je opisal tvoj znanec, so tako imenovana "OPGW optika", ki ni samo nadomestilo za stare PLC električne prenosne sisteme po daljnovodih, temveč nudi še veliko več. Mimogrede, optična vlakna v strelovodni vrvi daljnovoda niso edina možnost polaganja optičnih vodov po daljnovodih. Optični kabel se okoli strelovodne vrvi lahko tudi ovija s pomočjo posebnega avtomatiziranega robota, lahko se ovija okoli faznega vodnika, lahko pa sem med stebri daljnovoda tudi napne kot samonoseči kabel. Prvi taki optični kabli pa so se začeli pri nas nameščati pred zdaj že več kot 10 leti.

LP, Sandi
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OdgovorNapisal/-a s52w » 07 Nov 2004, 15:45

Se pravi pri nas ostaja glavna nevarnost na KV novi GORENJE TV ki ustvarja šum skoraj po celotnem spektru :)
Eden takšen mi je uničil WW SSB v kat 80m SOSB HP :evil:
73 Damjan
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OdgovorNapisal/-a s56al » 08 Nov 2004, 07:32

Tako nekako :). Kvečjemu še kakšen PC sosedovega nadobudneža, na 70cm pa LPD "brezžični slušalkarji", ki v mestu niso zanemarljiv vir motenj. Bomo tudi videli, ali bo kaj motenj od VDSL, če ga bo Telekom kdaj ponudil. Za razliko od ADSL, kjer se frekvenčni spekter na vodu zaključi pri 1,1 MHz, zaseda VDSL na bakrenem paru frekvenčni spekter do 12 MHz. Načeloma so poštarski bakreni vodi (pari) sicer dobro in natančno posukani, tako da imajo precejšnjo mero samooklapljanja.

LP, Sandi
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OdgovorNapisal/-a s55m » 09 Nov 2004, 09:15

S56AL "Načeloma so poštarski bakreni vodi (pari) sicer dobro in natančno posukani, tako da imajo precejšnjo mero samooklapljanja.
"

Samo načeloma!!!!!!!!
Iz prve roke!!!!!
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OdgovorNapisal/-a s56al » 09 Nov 2004, 09:30

Kakšne spojke, zlasti na zračnih vodih, znajo včasih res biti prava "sračja gnezda" in posledično antena, t.j. vir sevanj. Po drugi strani je pa treba tudi upoštevati, da so oddajni nivoji ADSL oz. VDSL modema dosti nižji, kot pri PLC širokopasovnih modemih.

Tipično preslušno slabljenje iz enega poštarskega kabelskega para v sosednjega, merjeno na isti strani kabla (PTT terminologija - "na bližnjem kraju"), znaša blizu 30 do 40dB (pri višjih frekvencah manj, pri starih kablih s papirno izolacijo zaradi manj natančne geometrije tudi nekoliko slabše). Tipična oddajna moč ADSL modema, ki je sicer adaptivna, je ca. 100mW. Že samo v sosedni poštarski kabelski par pri ADSL tako ne pride več kot 0,1mW, kaj šele ven iz kabla. Podobno bi moralo veljati za VDSL, morda rahlo slabše, ker je pri višjih frekvencah "samooklapljanje" slabše, vendar ne bistveno.

LP, Sandi
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